RECESS: 9:19 a.m.

RECONVENE: 9:21 a.m.

• CHAIR MOLINA: (Gavel). Outdoor Lighting Subcommittee meeting for July 10th is now back in session. Members, prior to continuing on with the matrix, we had a request from the Police Department to offer their comments at this time. The representative from the Police Department does have to go. Are there any objections to hearing remarks from the Police Department at this time from the Subcommittee?

• SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS: No objections.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. If not, okay, Chief Tam Ho, if you'd like to come up to the front here and offer your remarks on behalf of the Police Department.

• MR. TAM HO: Good morning.

• SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS: Good morning.

• MR. TAM HO: Just to give you some history on the Maui Police Department's position. I know a lot has happened. You've been having numerous meetings. I came to the first meeting and the second meeting. We made our position clear and nobody listened and this thing continued. So let me give you the history of the Police involvement. Months and months back three gentlemen came to the Police Department. I think it was Mr. Maberry, Steve Sutrov, and another gentlemen, and they requested to speak to our executive staff, and at that time they came in and they said they had this dream, and there was three of them, and they wanted to change the entire lighting in Maui County, and they told us that they knew that this would not happen, there was no hope, and we told them at that time that we were against it, totally against it, and we will be speaking up and we're not supporting this thing because it's bad for the County. And next thing I knew I was called to come here because they had a committee going, a Subcommittee going, and at that first meeting I stated again our position, and then I attended a second meeting and I asked Mr. Molina, do you really need us here, because obviously nobody's listening and you're proceeding. And at that time he told me, yes, you're not needed anymore. So now today I get this notice, and obviously you've accomplished a lot and you're moving forward, but I just want you to know that our executive staff, our entire command staff -- we have 455 employees. We have 335 sworn officers. This is a bad thing. We're against it. We -- obviously you're not in agreement with us, and that is okay, and I, you know, admire your initiative to go forward and try to accomplish -- and from three people you've grown. You've got this room almost -- you know, you've got people here listening. So you're accomplishing things, but this is a bad thing, and we'll testify wherever we have to to put this thing down. This is not good for the County. Any questions for me before I leave?

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay, Mr. Maberry.

• MR. MABERRY: Mr. Chairman, Chief, sir, just for clarification, your primary concern was from a safety and security standpoint as far as -- and primarily against low pressure sodium lamps and not necessarily against shielding; is that correct?

• MR. TAM HO: No, that's not correct.

• MR. MABERRY: Okay. Please clarify, then.

• MR. TAM HO: You know, the thing is that we met with you. We met with you for a while.

• MR. MABERRY: Yes, sir.

• MR. TAM HO: We discussed this thing, and we gave you our clear position on this, so don't try to twist this thing around with shielding and stuff like that. The thing is we said it's bad. Now, that's our position. Now, shielding, you've got to deal with Public Works or the Highway Division, whoever you want. If they want to shield, it's fine with us. That's not our concern. Our thing is the lighting. We never talked about shielding.

• MR. MABERRY: Again, clarification. So the primary thing that you're against is low pressure sodium lamps because of color rendition and this is related to safety and security; is that correct?

• MR. TAM HO: Okay. The point is this, what you're trying to do is you're trying to get me to compromise.

• MR. MABERRY: No. No, sir.

• MR. TAM HO: That's what you're asking me. I'm telling you our position is no. Now, whatever else you do, that's up to you. Okay. And I made it very clear on the very first day, and our Chief made it clear to you and you didn't listen to us, and that's why we're not happy with you.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Members, any other questions for Chief Tam Ho? Ms. Bernard.

• MS. BERNARD: I appreciate your coming down here to say these things, and I know it means a lot to you. And I want you to know that, at least from my perspective, it's not that we're ignoring you and that we aren't hearing you. There does need to be a discussion about where we can go from here. So we asked to have the Big Island Police Department give us some information. In San Diego they have low pressure sodium lighting, and from what we've heard there is not a safety issue from -- so far as we know in terms of the rendition of the color. Now, in terms of decreasing the lighting on the beaches and places like that, I can understand your concern, and we're looking at how do we do this and find a place where it's still safe and can we do this and just hold our ground. If you're happy with things the way they are now, can we at least hold ground rather than increasing lighting on Maui?

• MR. TAM HO: Okay. The thing is with any issue you're going to have opposing sides, right? So whatever information you gather is going to support your side. So if you go do studies in the mainland and get their studies and you go to the Big Island -- I know the chiefs on the Big Island. I talked to them about this thing. They hate those lightings, but you're going to go and gather information that's going to pad your side to support your position, but the Maui Police Department, we're taking a stand. We took it from day one, and we're not wavering here. We're not compromising. We're not wavering. I just left my Chief and he said, you go up there and you tell these people like it is. And that's what I'm doing today.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Mr. Chong, followed by Mr. McCord.

• MR. CHONG: Hi. If you've been at these meetings you know that I'm probably the only guy here that's against low pressure sodium.

• COUNCILMEMBER TAVARES: Not necessarily.

• MR. CHONG: Okay. Thank you. Just some food for thought. In our information that we got, San Diego County is now changing back to high pressure sodium. Okay. They are creating a zone around Mount Palomar -- which is what drove the low pressure sodium issue -- as a low pressure sodium zone, but it is now -- they are now pushing to switch back to high pressure sodium. And just for clarification, I mean, I understand the Police's concern, and also, on the other side, even though I don't like low pressure sodium, I do believe that cutoffs and things like that, design correctly and things like that have a place here on Maui and all this -- and throughout the State, and I think it would not compromise your job if it's high pressure sodium or metal halide. I do think it will compromise your job if it's low pressure sodium.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Thank you, Mr. Chong. Mr. McCord.

• MR. McCORD: I think it's time to revisit the Police Department. I think that we have a little miscommunication here, because I'm on this panel to try and do some light depredation reversal as well as maintain a balance between those people that need light for sports facilities and that sort of thing and beach protection and some of the other concerns of Haleakala, turtles, et cetera. I think we need to come back and tell you where this has progressed to. It is not just low pressure sodium anymore. We are now looking at a whole spectrum of lights, and surely the Police Department can't be concerned about the fact that we want to make lighting on play fields, for example, be more in compliance with modern standards. All you have to do is go to King K and take a look at what it's done to the neighborhood and you can see that there is a program that needs to be implemented to change those light invasions of the private residences and that sort of thing. And that's part of what we're doing. We're not just doing low pressure sodium, so I think we need to come back and talk to you and tell you where this whole thing is going and then have you object to those parts where you're concerned, rather than the whole ordinance.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Chief, any comments?

• MR. TAM HO: Okay. You just mentioned that you're doing other lightings. Okay. Is -- in that packet that you're reading, that ordinance, is there anything about low pressure sodium?

• MR. McCORD: Yes.

• MR. TAM HO: So you're pushing for low pressure sodium.

• MR. McCORD: No, no, no. You misunderstand. The Committee is looking at a whole lot of alternatives. Low pressure sodium is one out of, say, five issues.

• MR. TAM HO: Okay. So if you take low pressure sodium out, then we'll look at your package.

• MR. McCORD: Well, I thought --

• MR. TAM HO: Take it -- that's our position, take it out.

• MR. McCORD: Yeah. Because you initially said, you know, you object to the whole thing. I think you need to know that it's become a lot broader than just low pressure sodium.

• MR. TAM HO: Oh, I realize that, but I know the main initial push is low pressure sodium. So take it out, we'll look at your packet. I'll take one with me today.

• MR. McCORD: Well, we don't -- we don't have that position totally solidified yet, but I think we need to talk about this, because there must be a need in some areas to reduce, you know, ambient light that's going to affect the Haleakala National Observatory business up there and the turtles, but it doesn't mean that we have to put low pressure sodium all over the island. So I think we need --

• MR. TAM HO: So you're in agreement that you're going to take low pressure sodium out of this ordinance?

• MR. McCORD: No. I think we can use it. It just doesn't mean that we're going to use it totally.

• MR. TAM HO: See, the thing is you want me to compromise, but --

• MR. McCORD: No.

• MR. TAM HO: -- you're telling me --

• MR. McCORD: We want you to become informed as to where we're headed.

• MR. TAM HO: No, I'm informed. I know exactly what you're doing. I know from the very day what you're trying to do. I mean, it's not that I'm not aware of what you're doing. I'm fully aware of what you're doing.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay.

• MR. McCORD: You know more than I do then, because I don't know where it's going to end up.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay, Mr. McCord, thank you. I think we've discussed this matter enough, this particular session of questioning here. And, again, I want to inform everybody the Chair's intent is not to convert this whole island into low pressure sodium. We're just taking a look at all avenues of this issue of outdoor lighting. Nothing is finalized yet, and the input from the Police as well as every other entity or industry is valued by this Committee. And, again, whatever this Committee comes up with is not final because then it has to go to the Public Works and Transportation Committee. And so it's -- it will be somewhat of a long process, but, again, I think it's at least healthy for the community to hear all of the concerns, whether for or against, to look at alternatives and what we need to do if there is a real serious problem. But one of the priorities, I know for myself, and I'm just guessing for some of the Committee members, is its impact on public safety. I think for myself, as a legislator, and for Ms. Tavares, the safety of the public comes first. So for me, that's my angle. And if Councilmember Tavares would like to comment from her perspective, you know, you can give that perspective as well. I'm sorry, Ms. Bernard, you had a question for the Chief.

• MS. BERNARD: I just wanted to clarify the position, I think, of this Subcommittee has not been one of us having a particular perspective that we want to drive forward without any sense of compromise, and I'm dismayed and I'm sorry to hear that you think that there is no spirit of compromise and that we're asking you to --

• MR. McCORD: Me too.

• MS. BERNARD: -- come up with all the compromise, because that certainly hasn't been what we've -- what we've been doing here. And quite the contrary, what we're talking about is how do we reduce intensity in certain places and how do we hold ground so that we don't end up with a place that is so overlit that our turtles no longer nest here and you can no longer see the night sky. We're not talking about turning this island into a place that's so dark that you're completely out manned and you're unable to do your jobs. That certainly isn't our intention. Our intention is to make Maui and keep Maui a good place to live and visit, that balances the needs of the community with the wildlife that also live here. So please, you know, if you take anything away from this day, understand that I think I speak for all of us here, we have been compromising and looking for ways to compromise, and we're getting a little hung up on the language, but we're getting closer and closer. So we're hearing the low pressure sodium is not popular. Already I'm saying, okay, I can live without low pressure sodium on the beaches if that's really where we have to go. There's other alternatives. That's just the best one for the turtles. That's all.

• MR. TAM HO: Yeah, the thing is if you can, you know, understand our frustrations. From day one -- I gave you the history. These three gentlemen came to us from day one and we told them our position, and we came to the hearing again and we said it again, but it seems like nobody listens to us, and that's part of our expertise, public safety. Nobody's listening, and this thing continues going forward and there's still low pressure sodium in that ordinance that you're going to review today, and that's why it's very frustrating to the Police. You know, we want to cooperate. You know, if you're doing something good, we're going to back you up, but from day one we told you no, and nobody listens to us.

• MS. BERNARD: We're listening. We are.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Thank you very much, Chief, for your comments. Mr. Maberry.

• MR. MABERRY: Real quick. Just to let you know, I have learned an awful lot while sitting on this Committee since the day I met with you, and my mind is changing on a lot of issues too, so I would appreciate that you understand that.

• MR. TAM HO: That's good.

• MR. MABERRY: Thank you.

• CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Thank you very much, Chief.

• MR. TAM HO: Thank you.