remarks
17 from the Police Department at this time from the
18 Subcommittee?
19 SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS: No objections.
20 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. If not, okay, Chief Tam Ho, if you'd
21 like to come up to the front here and offer your
22 remarks on behalf of the Police Department.
23 MR. TAM HO: Good morning.
24 SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERS: Good morning.
25 MR. TAM HO: Just to give you some history on the Maui
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1 Police Department's position. I know a lot has
2 happened. You've been having numerous meetings. I
3 came to the first meeting and the second meeting.
4 We made our position clear and nobody listened and
5 this thing continued.
6 So let me give you the history of the Police
7 involvement. Months and months back three gentlemen
8 came to the Police Department. I think it was
9 Mr. Maberry, Steve Sutrov, and another gentlemen,
10 and they requested to speak to our executive staff,
11 and at that time they came in and they said they had
12 this dream, and there was three of them, and they
13 wanted to change the entire lighting in Maui County,
14 and they told us that they knew that this would not
15 happen, there was no hope, and we told them at that
16 time that we were against it, totally against it,
17 and we will be speaking up and we're not supporting
18 this thing because it's bad for the County.
19 And next thing I knew I was called to come
20 here because they had a committee going, a
21 Subcommittee going, and at that first meeting I
22 stated again our position, and then I attended a
23 second meeting and I asked Mr. Molina, do you really
24 need us here, because obviously nobody's listening
25 and you're proceeding. And at that time he told me,
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1 yes, you're not needed anymore.
2 So now today I get this notice, and obviously
3 you've accomplished a lot and you're moving forward,
4 but I just want you to know that our executive
5 staff, our entire command staff -- we have 455
6 employees. We have 335 sworn officers. This is a
7 bad thing. We're against it. We -- obviously
8 you're not in agreement with us, and that is okay,
9 and I, you know, admire your initiative to go
10 forward and try to accomplish -- and from three
11 people you've grown. You've got this room almost --
12 you know, you've got people here listening. So
13 you're accomplishing things, but this is a bad
14 thing, and we'll testify wherever we have to to put
15 this thing down. This is not good for the County.
16 Any questions for me before I leave?
17 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay, Mr. Maberry.
18 MR. MABERRY: Mr. Chairman, Chief, sir, just for
19 clarification, your primary concern was from a
20 safety and security standpoint as far as -- and
21 primarily against low pressure sodium lamps and not
22 necessarily against shielding; is that correct?
23 MR. TAM HO: No, that's not correct.
24 MR. MABERRY: Okay. Please clarify, then.
25 MR. TAM HO: You know, the thing is that we met with you.
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1 We met with you for a while.
2 MR. MABERRY: Yes, sir.
3 MR. TAM HO: We discussed this thing, and we gave you our
4 clear position on this, so don't try to twist this
5 thing around with shielding and stuff like that.
6 The thing is we said it's bad. Now, that's our
7 position. Now, shielding, you've got to deal with
8 Public Works or the Highway Division, whoever you
9 want. If they want to shield, it's fine with us.
10 That's not our concern. Our thing is the lighting.
11 We never talked about shielding.
12 MR. MABERRY: Again, clarification. So the primary thing
13 that you're against is low pressure sodium lamps
14 because of color rendition and this is related to
15 safety and security; is that correct?
16 MR. TAM HO: Okay. The point is this, what you're trying
17 to do is you're trying to get me to compromise.
18 MR. MABERRY: No. No, sir.
19 MR. TAM HO: That's what you're asking me. I'm telling
20 you our position is no. Now, whatever else you do,
21 that's up to you. Okay. And I made it very clear
22 on the very first day, and our Chief made it clear
23 to you and you didn't listen to us, and that's why
24 we're not happy with you.
25 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Members, any other questions for
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1 Chief Tam Ho? Ms. Bernard.
2 MS. BERNARD: I appreciate your coming down here to say
3 these things, and I know it means a lot to you. And
4 I want you to know that, at least from my
5 perspective, it's not that we're ignoring you and
6 that we aren't hearing you. There does need to be a
7 discussion about where we can go from here. So we
8 asked to have the Big Island Police Department give
9 us some information.
10 In San Diego they have low pressure sodium
11 lighting, and from what we've heard there is not a
12 safety issue from -- so far as we know in terms of
13 the rendition of the color. Now, in terms of
14 decreasing the lighting on the beaches and places
15 like that, I can understand your concern, and we're
16 looking at how do we do this and find a place where
17 it's still safe and can we do this and just hold our
18 ground. If you're happy with things the way they
19 are now, can we at least hold ground rather than
20 increasing lighting on Maui?
21 MR. TAM HO: Okay. The thing is with any issue you're
22 going to have opposing sides, right? So whatever
23 information you gather is going to support your
24 side. So if you go do studies in the mainland and
25 get their studies and you go to the Big Island -- I
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1 know the chiefs on the Big Island. I talked to them
2 about this thing. They hate those lightings, but
3 you're going to go and gather information that's
4 going to pad your side to support your position, but
5 the Maui Police Department, we're taking a stand.
6 We took it from day one, and we're not wavering
7 here. We're not compromising. We're not wavering.
8 I just left my Chief and he said, you go up there
9 and you tell these people like it is. And that's
10 what I'm doing today.
11 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Mr. Chong, followed by Mr. McCord.
12 MR. CHONG: Hi. If you've been at these meetings you know
13 that I'm probably the only guy here that's against
14 low pressure sodium.
15 COUNCILMEMBER TAVARES: Not necessarily.
16 MR. CHONG: Okay. Thank you. Just some food for thought.
17 In our information that we got, San Diego County is
18 now changing back to high pressure sodium. Okay.
19 They are creating a zone around Mount Palomar --
20 which is what drove the low pressure sodium issue --
21 as a low pressure sodium zone, but it is now -- they
22 are now pushing to switch back to high pressure
23 sodium. And just for clarification, I mean, I
24 understand the Police's concern, and also, on the
25 other side, even though I don't like low pressure
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1 sodium, I do believe that cutoffs and things like
2 that, design correctly and things like that have a
3 place here on Maui and all this -- and throughout
4 the State, and I think it would not compromise your
5 job if it's high pressure sodium or metal halide. I
6 do think it will compromise your job if it's low
7 pressure sodium.
8 CHAIR MOLINA: Thank you, Mr. Chong. Mr. McCord.
9 MR. McCORD: I think it's time to revisit the Police
10 Department. I think that we have a little
11 miscommunication here, because I'm on this panel to
12 try and do some light depredation reversal as well
13 as maintain a balance between those people that need
14 light for sports facilities and that sort of thing
15 and beach protection and some of the other concerns
16 of Haleakala, turtles, et cetera.
17 I think we need to come back and tell you
18 where this has progressed to. It is not just low
19 pressure sodium anymore. We are now looking at a
20 whole spectrum of lights, and surely the Police
21 Department can't be concerned about the fact that we
22 want to make lighting on play fields, for example,
23 be more in compliance with modern standards. All
24 you have to do is go to King K and take a look at
25 what it's done to the neighborhood and you can see
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1 that there is a program that needs to be implemented
2 to change those light invasions of the private
3 residences and that sort of thing.
4 And that's part of what we're doing. We're
5 not just doing low pressure sodium, so I think we
6 need to come back and talk to you and tell you where
7 this whole thing is going and then have you object
8 to those parts where you're concerned, rather than
9 the whole ordinance.
10 CHAIR MOLINA: Chief, any comments?
11 MR. TAM HO: Okay. You just mentioned that you're doing
12 other lightings. Okay. Is -- in that packet that
13 you're reading, that ordinance, is there anything
14 about low pressure sodium?
15 MR. McCORD: Yes.
16 MR. TAM HO: So you're pushing for low pressure sodium.
17 MR. McCORD: No, no, no. You misunderstand. The
18 Committee is looking at a whole lot of alternatives.
19 Low pressure sodium is one out of, say, five issues.
20 MR. TAM HO: Okay. So if you take low pressure sodium
21 out, then we'll look at your package.
22 MR. McCORD: Well, I thought --
23 MR. TAM HO: Take it -- that's our position, take it out.
24 MR. McCORD: Yeah. Because you initially said, you know,
25 you object to the whole thing. I think you need to
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1 know that it's become a lot broader than just low
2 pressure sodium.
3 MR. TAM HO: Oh, I realize that, but I know the main
4 initial push is low pressure sodium. So take it
5 out, we'll look at your packet. I'll take one with
6 me today.
7 MR. McCORD: Well, we don't -- we don't have that position
8 totally solidified yet, but I think we need to talk
9 about this, because there must be a need in some
10 areas to reduce, you know, ambient light that's
11 going to affect the Haleakala National Observatory
12 business up there and the turtles, but it doesn't
13 mean that we have to put low pressure sodium all
14 over the island. So I think we need --
15 MR. TAM HO: So you're in agreement that you're going to
16 take low pressure sodium out of this ordinance?
17 MR. McCORD: No. I think we can use it. It just doesn't
18 mean that we're going to use it totally.
19 MR. TAM HO: See, the thing is you want me to compromise,
20 but --
21 MR. McCORD: No.
22 MR. TAM HO: -- you're telling me --
23 MR. McCORD: We want you to become informed as to where
24 we're headed.
25 MR. TAM HO: No, I'm informed. I know exactly what you're
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1 doing. I know from the very day what you're trying
2 to do. I mean, it's not that I'm not aware of what
3 you're doing. I'm fully aware of what you're doing.
4 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay.
5 MR. McCORD: You know more than I do then, because I don't
6 know where it's going to end up.
7 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay, Mr. McCord, thank you. I think we've
8 discussed this matter enough, this particular
9 session of questioning here.
10 And, again, I want to inform everybody the
11 Chair's intent is not to convert this whole island
12 into low pressure sodium. We're just taking a look
13 at all avenues of this issue of outdoor lighting.
14 Nothing is finalized yet, and the input from the
15 Police as well as every other entity or industry is
16 valued by this Committee.
17 And, again, whatever this Committee comes up
18 with is not final because then it has to go to the
19 Public Works and Transportation Committee. And so
20 it's -- it will be somewhat of a long process, but,
21 again, I think it's at least healthy for the
22 community to hear all of the concerns, whether for
23 or against, to look at alternatives and what we need
24 to do if there is a real serious problem.
25 But one of the priorities, I know for myself,
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1 and I'm just guessing for some of the Committee
2 members, is its impact on public safety. I think
3 for myself, as a legislator, and for Ms. Tavares,
4 the safety of the public comes first. So for me,
5 that's my angle. And if Councilmember Tavares would
6 like to comment from her perspective, you know, you
7 can give that perspective as well.
8 I'm sorry, Ms. Bernard, you had a question
9 for the Chief.
10 MS. BERNARD: I just wanted to clarify the position, I
11 think, of this Subcommittee has not been one of us
12 having a particular perspective that we want to
13 drive forward without any sense of compromise, and
14 I'm dismayed and I'm sorry to hear that you think
15 that there is no spirit of compromise and that we're
16 asking you to --
17 MR. McCORD: Me too.
18 MS. BERNARD: -- come up with all the compromise, because
19 that certainly hasn't been what we've -- what we've
20 been doing here. And quite the contrary, what we're
21 talking about is how do we reduce intensity in
22 certain places and how do we hold ground so that we
23 don't end up with a place that is so overlit that
24 our turtles no longer nest here and you can no
25 longer see the night sky.
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1 We're not talking about turning this island
2 into a place that's so dark that you're completely
3 out manned and you're unable to do your jobs. That
4 certainly isn't our intention. Our intention is to
5 make Maui and keep Maui a good place to live and
6 visit, that balances the needs of the community with
7 the wildlife that also live here.
8 So please, you know, if you take anything
9 away from this day, understand that I think I speak
10 for all of us here, we have been compromising and
11 looking for ways to compromise, and we're getting a
12 little hung up on the language, but we're getting
13 closer and closer. So we're hearing the low
14 pressure sodium is not popular. Already I'm saying,
15 okay, I can live without low pressure sodium on the
16 beaches if that's really where we have to go.
17 There's other alternatives. That's just the best
18 one for the turtles. That's all.
19 MR. TAM HO: Yeah, the thing is if you can, you know,
20 understand our frustrations. From day one -- I gave
21 you the history. These three gentlemen came to us
22 from day one and we told them our position, and we
23 came to the hearing again and we said it again, but
24 it seems like nobody listens to us, and that's part
25 of our expertise, public safety. Nobody's
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1 listening, and this thing continues going forward
2 and there's still low pressure sodium in that
3 ordinance that you're going to review today, and
4 that's why it's very frustrating to the Police. You
5 know, we want to cooperate. You know, if you're
6 doing something good, we're going to back you up,
7 but from day one we told you no, and nobody listens
8 to us.
9 MS. BERNARD: We're listening. We are.
10 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Thank you very much, Chief, for your
11 comments. Mr. Maberry.
12 MR. MABERRY: Real quick. Just to let you know, I have
13 learned an awful lot while sitting on this Committee
14 since the day I met with you, and my mind is
15 changing on a lot of issues too, so I would
16 appreciate that you understand that.
17 MR. TAM HO: That's good.
18 MR. MABERRY: Thank you.
19 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. Thank you very much, Chief.
20 MR. TAM HO: Thank you.
21 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay, members, comments on Section .070?
22 Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Saldana, turn it back over to
23 you. Would you like us to lower the lights in this
24 case? Members, are you having --
25 COUNCILMEMBER TAVARES: You can't read it anyway.
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1 ?: Now that we've --
2 ?: They're going to follow their chart.
3 COUNCILMEMBER TAVARES: Now that we found the chart.
4 CHAIR MOLINA: Okay. So you guys are okay with it. Okay.
5 I just wanted to make sure nobody has any problems
6 with vision or anything. Okay. As you read it
7 along, Mr. Saldana, we'll follow along.
8 MR. SALDANA: Okay, great. So the next section that we
9 were talking about is .070.A.1, and in there you'll
10 notice the recommendation is eliminate the wording
11 "LPS lamps are not required," and that is the last
12 few words of that particular paragraph. So it was
13 recommended that we eliminate that.
14 The next recommendation is .070.A.1.A, where
15 we would add the words "hours of operation" after
16 the word "during." So it would read "outdoor sales,
17 eating or dining areas during hours of operation."
18 The next section is .070.A.1.B, shall be
19 rewritten to read, "industrial or mechanical
20 assembly or repair areas."
21 .070.A.1.C shall read as follows:
22 "recreational, sports, or public assembly facilities
23 and other similar applications."
24 And then we added -- there was a
25 recommendation to add a Section E, which would refer
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